General Ante Gotovina

to je tvoj maksimum argumentiranja?

NinjaTurtle je napisao/la: › to je tvoj maksimum argumentiranja?

To je argument na razini ovog odgovora: "Bilo tko tko je dovoljno moćan da zaustavi orgijanje srpske vojske. Dakle svakako SAD, Velika Britanija, Francuska, Njemačka..."

U poruci ispred imas ozbiljno pitanje, koje bi trebalo navesti na argument. Ali, kad netko odgovori da su ove zemlje trebale pucati po bilo kome, onda se covjek zapita nalazi li se usred igrice plasticnim vojnicima ili kakvog crtica.

Pa ne prema bilo kome, nemoj bit smiješan. Za Hrvatsku 1991. nije bila nikakva igra nego golo preživljavanje.

NinjaTurtle je napisao/la: › Pa ne prema bilo kome, nemoj bit smiješan. Za Hrvatsku 1991. nije bila nikakva igra nego golo preživljavanje.

Meni se cini da si ti propustio ono moje pitanje, pa cu ga ponoviti: Zasto bi bilo tko i na osnovu cega (kojeg dokumenta, dogovora) 1991. poslao svoju vojsku u Hrvatsku da "razbuca" cetnike, JNA, koga god? Istina, u Hrvatkoj i Osijeku 1991. nije bilo ugodno zivjeti (osjetio i na vlastitoj kozi), ali to nije tema rasprave, niti je to sada bitno za pitanje motiva "svjetskih mocnika".

P.S. Udaljavamo se od teme, a tema je Gotovina, odnosno argumenti za i protiv (podvaljenoj) tezi da "svjetski mocnici" zele "izjecnaciti agresora i zrtvu" i "kriminalizirati Domovinski rat i od sih Hrvata napraviti ratne zlocince".

Zato da se prekine agresija Srbije na Hrvatsku.
Dakle od 8.10. 1991 Srbija(ostatak Jugoslavije ili tko već) i de iure vodi agresivni rat protiv
Hrvatske.

Što se tiče Un-a, jedna od njegovih glavnih zadaća je očuvanje svjetskog mira, koji se uzmeđu ostalog čuva i vojnom intervencijom. Dakle tadašnje vijeće sigurnosti je moglo intervenirati i zaustaviti agresiju na Hrvatsku ( i BiH kasnije).

NinjaTurtle je napisao/la: › Zato da se prekine agresija Srbije na Hrvatsku. Dakle od 8.10. 1991 Srbija(ostatak Jugoslavije ili tko već) i de iure vodi agresivni rat protiv Hrvatske.

Gle, skrenut cemo s teme, ali sve sto si naveo pobija samo jedna mala cinjenica - Hrvatska je medjunarodno priznata tek 15.01.1992. - drugim rijecima, za UN i sve ostale, u 1991. postoji samo Jugoslavija.

I, btw. doista zivis u crticu ako mislis da ce neke zemlje ici u rat da bi eto, prekinule tamo neki sukob [ili prekine agersija zemlje A na zemlju B (cak i pod pretpostavkom da su obje priznate i da se doista radi o agresiji, a ne pobuni i gradjanskom ratu kako je to tada izgledalo)].

Agresija postoji od proglašenja neovisnosti, nebitno je međunarodno priznanje.

Bitno je to da nitko nije reagirao na agresiju kad je trebalo. Još je Hrvatskoj stavljen i embargo na uvoz oružja.

bilo kako bilo, ako gotovinu osude, to će biti jasan pokazatelj da nisu čista posla..
jer ono što sam ja danas i jučer vidio je obični cirkus.
tužiteljstvo nema niti jedan konkretan dokaz, glavni svjedok im je tamo neki peđa koji je došao u neko mjesto poslije akcije, i vidjevši da tamo nema nikog, zaključio kako su tamo počinjeni zločini i da ih je baš gotovina naredio..

cirkus i sramota naše države da je uopće dopustila izručenje.

simo031 je napisao/la: › Ante Gotovina ne može biti kriv za zločine jer su se oni dogodili kad su zapovijedanje i odgovornost nad oslobođenim teritorijem preuzele postrojbe specijalne policije.

Iako ja nemam pojma tko je počinio bilo kakve zločine, a nemaš ni ti, tvoj argument dobar je samo za to da se oslobodi Gotovinu, a osudi jednog drugog hrvatskog generala.

Meni su svi hrvatski generali jednaki, pa nemam nikakvog razloga preferirati Gotovinu ispred Glavaša, Norca ili Čermaka. Kad se sjetim, nije li i s Norcem bilo istih sranja i floskula, pa onda odjednom ništa? No to je nevažno, jer se tu ne radi o zločinima i krivnji, već o politici. O krivnji i zločinima uskoro će odlučiti sud, kakav god on bio.

simo031 je napisao/la: › Mirovne snage i EU dužnosnici su zakazali u Vukovaru , Srebrenici , Kostajnici itd. Ranjenici, civili i nekolicina boraca su boravila u vukovarskoj bolnici te u vojnim bazama UN-a . UN-ovi vojnici su dozvolili odvođenje i pogubljenje istih. Isti ti EU dužnosnici su sa četnicima švercali gorivo , oružje, oblokavali i prežderavali se. Haški tribunal su osmislili kao instrument na kojem će svoje gore navedene propuste pokušati ispraviti i tako smiriti svoju savjest.

Haški tribunal osmislili su Amerikanci, a njih nije bilo na mjestima o kojima ti pričaš. Osmislili su ga, kao i onog za Ruandu, svjesni da su narodi iz ratnog područja previše primitivni da bi sami sudili prvenstveno svojim ratnim zločincima. Pa uostalom, naš je narod toliko primitivan, da se ni Glavašu, 15 godina poslije, nije moglo suditi u Osijeku, nego su stvar premjestili u Zagreb. Ako se nije moglo Glavašu 2005., valjda je jasno da se nije moglo ni drugima devedesetih. Osim ako netko ne žali što se Miloševiću ili Šešelju nije sudilo u Srbiji, umjesto u nepravednom Haagu, stvorenom da "izjednači krivnju", "zbog interesa velikih sila".

Da su Europljani mogli bolje reagirati, to se slažemo. Jedino što je to bilo naivno očekivati.

simo031 je napisao/la: › Osuda Ante Gotovine bi bila kriminalizacija domovinskog rata i svih njegovih sudionika, jer sud ne traži individualnu odgovornost svakog učesnika ponaosob nego trebaju žrtveno janje.

Ja i dalje ne shvaćam što tebi znači "kriminalizacija". Ne shvaćam ni gdje si pročitao da sud ne traži individualnu odgovornost. Zadnji put kad sam gledao prilog iz Haaga, sudilo se trojici individua, zbog određenih zločina (čini mi se, otprilike, zbog toga što su zločine direktno naredili, ili nisu ništa poduzeli da ih spriječe, ili zataškavali - sve od navedenog prilično je zločinačko). No ni to nije posebno interesantno, odnosno ni blizu onome što bi neki htjeli. Čak je tužitelj izričito oslobodio Hrvate bilo kakvih špekulacija o kolektivnoj odgovornosti (jučer, naime, u ovom posljednjem obraćanju sudu, ali to je isto manje važno).

Naime, opet ću ponoviti, presuda, kakva bila, ne može utjecati na bilo čiju percepciju Domovinskog rata, ne može osuditi ili osloboditi nikog osim njih trojice, i da se kojim slučajem od Gotovine nije pokušalo stvoriti kultnu ličnost, ovo suđenje bilo bi u medijima popraćeno malom crticom na dnu teksta u rubrici "crna kronika". Uostalom, baš onako kako bi se suđenje pratilo da su u postupku samo Čermak i Markač (ljudi nemaju sreće - niti su zgodni pa da se svide desničarkama, niti imaju iza sebe dobro organiziranu mrežu pomagača, za koju će netko reći da pripada kriminalnom miljeu, niti su bježali po Europi uz vjerojatnu pomoć talijanske mafije, niti su se o njima pisale knjige da su heroji - a ako je heroj Gotovina, onda heroja ima još mnogo).

Najzanimljivija tema nije Gotovina - nego tko se njime služi. Jadan čovjek, postao je igračka u rukama iskvarenih "domoljuba", prvo mu nisu ni dali da se brani (Tuđman), pa su mu krili dokumente (Tuđmanovci), pa su mu pomogli da pobjegne (tko zna tko), a danas će se njegovim slučajem poslužiti u dnevnopolitičke svrhe.

Pokušali su s Norcem, no čovjek je izgleda zbilja zločinac. Pa su Bobetka držali zarobljenog, sakupljajući kestenje. Ademi je Albanac, pa je odmah otpisan, Čermak se nakrao benzina, Markač je previše miran i normalan čovjek, pa se Gotovina nametnuo sam od sebe. I tako nas ti ljudi u ratu drže i 15 godina nakon rata. Što nam slijedi ako čovjeka nedaj Bože osude? Vezivanje lancima? Terorizam? Euroskepticizam? Proklinjanje Haaga? Državni udar (jadan Šeks i Hdz-ovci, nije im trebalo ono locirati, uhititi, transferirati)? Renesansa Đapića, Glavaša, Čondića i ostalih? Zaborav na ekonomsku krizu? Pa ja bih rekao, ne slijedi nam ništa. Prošla je baka s tim kolačima, nekoliko puta u vih 15-20 godina.

maniche je napisao/la: › tužiteljstvo nema niti jedan konkretan dokaz, glavni svjedok im je tamo neki peđa koji je došao u neko mjesto poslije akcije, i vidjevši da tamo nema nikog, zaključio kako su tamo počinjeni zločini i da ih je baš gotovina naredio..

To zaključuješ čitajući hrvatske novine? Ili su bio prisutan na cijelom suđenju? Čitam da je mnogo svjedoka ostalo tajno, jer se boje za život. Jesu li oni ti Peđe? Nadajmo se da si u pravu, zbog generala. Bilo bi nam svima lakše ako ih oslobode.

Dakle idemo ovako isječeno, sastanci grupe Bildenberg u datim godinama sa temom bivše Juge.


June 6-9, 1991 - Baden-Baden, Germany
I. Eastern Europe: economic prospects
II. Developments in the Soviet Union: political and economic impacts on the Alliance
III. The Middle East: political fallout and future prospects
IV. Current Events: German Economic Reconciliation: the Treuhand Experience
V. The Practical Agenda for the Alliance
VI. Do we have the institutions to deal with the agenda?
VII. Economic and financial threats to the Alliance
VIII. Current Events: South Africa
IX. Current Events: Yugoslavia

Bilderberg Meetings
Baden-Baden, Germany
6-9 June 1991

LIST OF PARTICIPANTS

CHAIRMAN:
Lord Carrington
Chairman of the Board, Christie’s International plc; Former Secretary General, NATO

HONORARY SECRETARY GENERAL FOR EUROPE AND CANADA:
Victor Halberstadt
Professor of Public Economics, Leiden University

HONORARY SECRETARY GENERAL FOR U.S.A.:
Theodore L. Eliot Jr.
Senior Research Fellow, Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace, Stanford University

HONORARY TREASURER:
Conrad J. Oort
Former Adviser to the Board of Management, Algemene Bank Nederland NV;
Professor of Money and Banking, University of Limburg


ITA Giovanni Agnelli** Chairman, Fiat S.p.A.
USA Paul Allaire Chairman, Xerox Corporation
USA George W. Ball** Former Under-Secretary of States
POR Francisco Pinto Balsemao* Professor of Mass Communication, New University, Lisbon; Chairman, Sojornal
sarl; Former Prime Minister
USA Robert L. Bartley Editor, The Wall Street Journal
GER Christoph Bertram* Diplomatic Correspondent, “Die Zeit”
NETH Ernst H. van der Beugel** Emeritus Professor of International Relations, Leiden University; Former Honorary
Secretary General of Bilderberg Meetings for Europe and Canada
TUR Selahattin Beyazit* Director of Companies
ICE Bjorn Bjarnason Member of Parliament, Independence Party
DEN Ritt Bjerregaard Labour Member of Parliament; Chairman of the Labour Group
CAN Conrad M. Black* Chairman, The Daily Telegraph plc
USA Robert D. Blackwill Lecturer in Public Policy, John F. Kennedy School of Government, Harvard
University; Former member National Security Council
GER Klaus Blech Ambassador to U.S.S.R.
USA Michael J. Boskin Chairman, President’s Council of Economic Advisers
GER Birgit Breuel Chairman of the Board, Treuhandanstalt
UK Gordon Brown Member of Parliament (Labour Party); Shadow Secretary of State for Trade and
Industry
NOR Arne Olav Brundtland Senior Research Fellow, Norwegian Institute of International Affairs
BEL Jean-Louis Cadieux Deputy Director-General for Foreign Affairs, European Community
ITA Giampiero Cantoni Chairman, Banca Nazionale del Lavoro
GRE Costa Carras* Director of Companies
SPA Jaime Carvajal Urquijo* Chairman and General Manager, Iberfomento
USA John H. Chafee Senator (Republican, Rhode Island)
USA Bill D. Clinton Governor of Arkansas
FRA Bertrand Collomb Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Lafarge Coppee
USA Kenneth W. Dam* Vice President, Law and External Relations, IBM Corporation; Former Deputy
Secetary of State
BEL Etienne Davignon* Chairman, Societe Generale de Belgique; Former Vice Chairman of the
Commission of the European Communities
DEN Aage Deleuran* Editor-in-Chief, “Berlingske Tidende”
GER Werner H. Dieter Chairman of the Board, Mannesmann A.G.
NOR Per Ditlev-Simonsen Managing Director, Sverre Ditlev-Simonsen & Co.
CAN Marie-Josee Drouin* Executive Director, Hudson Institute of Canada
INT Arthur Dunkel Director General G.A.T.T.
FIN Aatos Erkko Publisher, “Helsingin Sanomat”
USA Dianne Feinstein Former Mayor of San Francisco
UK Lawrence D. Freedman Head of Department of War Studies, King’s College
CAN Lysiane Gagnon Journalist, La Presse
INT John R. Galvin Supreme Allied Commander Europe, SHAPE
SWI Fritz Gerber Chairman of the Board, F. Hoffmann-La Roche AG
USA Katharine Graham Chairman, The Washington Post Company
USA Maurice R. Greenberg Chairman, American International Group, Inc.
CAN Anthony G.S. Griffin** Director of Companies
SWE Sten Gustafsson* Chairman of the Board of Directors, AB Astra
USA Richard N. Haass Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director Near East and South Asian
Affairs, National Security Council
TUR Vahit M. Halefoglu Former Minister of Foreign Affairs
UK Christopher Hogg Chairman, Courtaulds plc
FIN Jaakko Iloniemi* Managing Director, Council of Economic Organizations in Finland; Former
Ambassador to the United States of America
FRA Claude Imbert Chief Editor, “Le Point”
AUS Peter Jankowitsch* Minister of State in charge of European Integration and Development Cooperation
SWE Lars Jonung Profesor of Economics and Economic Policy at Stockholm School of Economics
USA Vernon E. Jordan, Jr.* Partner, Akin, Gump, Strauss, Hauer & Feld (Attorneys-at-Law); Former President,
National Urban League
USA Henry A. Kissinger* Former Secretary of State; Chairman, Kissinger Associates, Inc.
NETH Ben Knapen Editor-in-Chief, NRC Handelsblad
UK Andrew Knight* Executive Chairman, News International plc
INT Max Kohnstamm** Former Secretary General, Action Committee for Europe; Former President,
European University Institute
GER Hilmar Kopper* Spokesman of the Board of Managing Directors, Deutsche Bank A.G.
NETH Pieter Korteweg President and Chief Executive Officer of the Board Committee of the Robeco
Group
SWI Alex Krauer* Chairman and Managing Director, Ciba-Geigy Limited
FRA Marc Ladreit de Lacharriere* Chairman, Fimalac
GER Kurt J. Lauk Vice Chairman of the Management Board, Audi A.G.
FRA Andre Levy-Lang Chairman, Compagnie Financiere de Paribas
NETH Ruud F.M. Lubbers Prime Minister
BEL Wilfried Martens Prime Minister
USA Charles McC. Mathias* Partner, Jones, Day, Reavis & Pogue; Former U.S. Senator (Republican, Maryland)
USA Jack F. Matlock, Jr. Ambassador to the U.S.S.R.
ITA Gianni De Michelis Minister of Foreign Affairs
PORT Carlos A.P.V. Monjardino President of the Fundacao Oriente
FRA Thierry de Montbrial* Director, French Institute of International Relations; Professor of Economics, Ecole
Polytechnique
ITA Mario Monti* Rector and Professor of Economics, Bocconi University, Milan
NETH Her Majesty The Queen of the Netherlands
FRA Michel Noir Mayor of Lyon, Ex-Secretary of State for Foreign Trade
ICE David Oddsson Prime Minister
TUR Tugay Ozceri Under Secretary, Ministry of Foreign Affairs
GRE John D. Paleocrassas Minister of Finance
POR Carlos Pimenta Member of the European Parliament, Former Secretary of State for Environment
GER Karl Otto Pohl President, Deutsche Bundesbank
CAN John Polanyi Professor of Chemistry, University of Toronto
SPA Jordi Pujol President, Generalitat de Catalunya
USA William B. Quandt Senior Fellow, The Brookings Institution
SWE Bo C E Ramfors Managing Director and Group Chief Executive of Skandinaviska Enskilda Banken,
Board member of several companies
USA Rozanne L. Ridgway* President, The Atlantic Council of the United States
SWI Michael Ringier Publisher, Chairman of the Board of Ringier Inc.
USA David Rockefeller** Chairman, Chase Manhattan Bank International Advisory Committee
UK Lord Roll of Ipsden** President, S.G. Warburg Group plc
ITA Renato Ruggiero Chief Negotiator G.A.T.T.
GER Volker Ruhe General Secretary Parliamentary Party CDU
GER Heinz J.H. Ruhnau Chairman of the Board, Deutsche Lufthansa A.G.
AUS Guido Schmidt-Chiari Chairman of the Managing Board Creditanstalt Bankverein
SPA Narcis Serra Deputy Prime Minister
USA John S.R. Shad Director and Philanthropist
USA Thomas W. Simons, Jr. Ambassador to Poland
UK John Smith* Member of Parliament (Labour Party); Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer
GER Theo Sommer Editor-in-Chief, “Die Zeit”
SPA Her Majesty The Queen of Spain
BEL Guy Spitaels Chairman Socialist Party, Minister of State
INT Helga Steeg Executive Director, International Energy Agency
IRE Peter D. Sutherland* Former Member, Commission of the European Communities; Chairman, Allied
Irish Banks Group
GER Erwin Teufel Prime Minister of Baden-Wutemberg
AUS Franz Vranitzky Federal Chancellor
INT Henning Wegener Assistant Secretary General for Political Affairs, North Atlantic Treaty
Organisation
NOR Niels Werring, Jr.* Chairman of the Board, Wilh. Wilhelmsen Limited A/S
USA John C. Whitehead* Former Deputy Secretary of State
USA Brayton Wilbur, Jr. President and Chief Executive Officer, Wilbur-Ellis Company
USA Lawrence D. Wilder Governor of Virginia
DEN Nils Wilhjelm President, Industrial Mortgage Fund; Former Minister of Industry
USA Lynn R. Williams International President, United Steelworkers of America
CAN Michael H. Wilson Minister of Industry, Science and Technology and International Trade
USA James D. Wolfensohn* President, James D. Wolffensohn, Inc.
GER Otto Wolff von Amerongen** Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Otto Wolff Industrieberatung und
Beteiligungen GmbH
INT Manfred Worner Secretary General of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation
UK Patrick Wright Permanent Under Secretary of State and Head of the Diplomatic Service
GRE Minos Zombanakis Chairman, Group for International Study and Evaluation


Observer
NETH H.R.H. The Prince of Orange

Rapporteur
USA Grant F. Winthrop Partner, Milbank Wilson Winthrop, Inc.
USA Alice Victor

In Attendance
NETH Maja Banck Executive Secretary, Bilderberg Meetings
FRA Felicia Cavasse Organizer, 1992 Conference
GER Gunther W.F. Dicke First Vice President, Deutsche Bank A.G.; Organizer, 1991 Conference
FRA Veronique Morali Organizer, 1992 Conference
USA Charles W. Muller President, Murden and Company; Adviser, American Friends of Bilderberg, Inc.


* Member of the Steering Committee
** Member of the Advisory Group



Source: George W. Ball Papers, Seeley G. Mudd Manuscript Library at Princeton University

Ajmo dalje....

June 8-11, 1995 - Burgenstock, Switzerland
I. What is NATO supposed to do?
II. Is there work for all?
III. Atomization of society: Impact on political behavior of new technology
IV. Looking (Back) at Washington
V. Current events: Turkey and the Atlantic Alliance
VI. Is there still a North Atlantic Community?
VII. Should the European Union integrate further, and why?
VIII. Our agendas for WTO and World Bank
IX. Current events: Former Yugoslavia
X. Peacekeeping in an UNstable World
XI. Lessons of the New Currency Crises
XII. Practical steps towards a better Global Governance and Rules

May 30 - June 2, 1996 - King City, Ontario, Canada
I. Status Report on the Alliance
II. Former Yugoslavia
III. Russia: Political Forces and Economic Prospects
IV. Europe: the Politics of EU Enlargement
V. Has Europe’s Economy Run Out of Steam?
VI. Will the Enlarged Union Survive EU's Success or Failure?
VII. The U.S. Agenda
VIII. The Israeli Election
IX. How and How Much Can the Western World Grow Economically?
X. WTO and the World Bank: Briefing
XI. Where is China Going?

BILDERBERG MEETINGS
Toronto, Canada
May 30 - June 2, 1996

LIST OF PARTICIPANTS

CHAIRMAN:
GB Carrington, Peter Former Chairman of the Board, Christie's International plc; Former Secretary
General, NATO

Honorary Secretary General for Europe and Canada:
NL Victor Halberstadt Professor of Public Economics, Leiden University

Honorary Secretary General for U.S.A.:
USA Casimir A. Yost Director, Institute for the Study of Diplomacy, School of Foreign Service,
Georgetown University, Washington D.C.


PARTICIPANTS:
I Agnelli, Giovanni Honorary Chairman, Fiat S.p.A.
FIN Ahtisaari, Martti President of the Republic of Finland
USA Allaire, Paul A. Chairman, Xerox Corporation
USA Andreas, Dwayne Chairman, Archer-Daniels-Midland Company
S Aslund, Anders Senior Associate, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
CDN Axworthy, Lloyd Minister for Foreign Affairs
P Balsemao, Francisco Pinto Professor of Communication Science, New University, Lisbon; Chairman,
IMPRESA, S.G.P.S.; Former Prime Minister
S Barnevik, Percy President and Chief Executive Officer, ABB Asca Brown Boveri Ltd.
USA Bentsen, Lloyd M. Former Secretary of the Treasury; Partner, Verner Liipferi Bernhard McPherson
and Hand, Chartered
I Bernabe, Franco Managing Director and CEO, Ente Nazionale Idrocarburi
D Bertram, Christoph Diplomatic Correspondent, Die Zeit; Former Director International Institute for
Strategic Studies
TR Beyazit, Selahattin Director of Companies
INT Bildt, Carl The High Representative
CDN Black, Conrad M. Chairman, The Telegraph plc
NL Bolkenstein, Frits Parliamentary Leader VVD (Liberal Party)
INT Bottelier, Piefer P. Chief of Mission, The World Bank, Resident Mission in China
USA Bryan, John H. Chairman and CEO, Sara Lee Corporation
USA Buckley, Jr., William F. Editor-at-Large, National Review
GR Carras, Costa Director of Companies
D Cartellieri, Ulrich Member of the Board, Deutsche Bank, A.G.
E Carvajal Urquijo, Jaime Chairman and General Manager, Iberfomento
CDN Chretien, Jean Prime Minister
F Collomb, Bertrand Chairman and CEO, Lafarge
USA Corzine, Jon S. Senior Partner and Chairman, Goldman Sachs & Co.
CH Cotti, Flavio Minister for Foreign Affairs
USA Dam, Kenneth W. Max Pam Professor of American and Foreign Law, The University of Chicago
Law School
GR David, George Chairman, Hellenic Bottling Company S.A.
B Davignon, Etienne Executive Chairman, Societe Generale de Belgique; Former Vice Chairman of the
Commission of the European Communities
CDN Drouin, Marie-Josee Executive Director, Hudson Institute of Canada
CDN Eaton, Fredrik S. Chairman, Executive Committee, Eaton's of Canada
DK Ellemann-Jensen, Uffe Member of Parliament
TR Ercel, Gazi Governor, Central Bank of Turkey
USA Feldstein, Martin S. President, National Bureau of Economic Research
INT Fischer, Stanley First Deputy Managing Director, International Monetary Fund
CDN Flood, A.L. Chairman, Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce
USA Freeman, Jr., Chas. W. Former Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security;
Chairman of the Board, Projects International Associates, Inc.
GB Garton Ash, Timothy Fellow of St. Antony’s College, Oxford
USA Gigot, Paul Washington Columnist, The Wall Street Journal
TR Gonensay, Emre Minister for Foreign Affairs
CDN Gotlieb, Allan E. Former Ambassador to the United States of America
CDN Griffin, Anthony G.S. Honorary Chairman and Director, Guardian Group
CDN Harris, Michael Premier of Ontario
D Haussmann, Helmut Member of Parliament, Free Democratic Party
N Hoegh, Westye Chairman of the Board, Leif Hoegh & Co. A.S.A.; Former President, Norwegian
Shipowners' Association
USA Holbrooke, Richard Former Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs
B Huyghebaert, Jan Chairman, Almanij-Krediet-bank Group
FIN Iloniemi, Jaakko Managing Director, Centre for Finnish Business and Policy Studies;
Former Ambassador to the United States of America
GB Job, Peter Chief Executive, Reuters Holding PLC
USA Jordan, Jr., Vernon E. Senior Partner, Akin, Gump, Strauss, Hauer & Feld, LLP (Attorneys-at-Law)
F Jospin, Lionel First Secretary of the Socialist Party; Former Ministre d’Etat
A Karner, Dietrich Chairman of the Managing Board, Erste Allgemeine-Generali Aktiengelsellshaft
USA Kissinger, Henry A. Former Secretary of State; Chairman, Kissinger Associates; Inc.
GB Knight, Andrew Non Executive Director, News Corporation
INT Kohnstamm, Max Senior Fellow, European Policy Centre, Brussels; Former Secretary General,
Action Committee for Europe; Former President, European University Institute
A Kothbauer, Max Deputy Chairman, Creditanstalt-Bankverein
USA Kravis, Henry R. Founding Partner, Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co.
D Lauk, Kurt Member of the Board, Veba A.G.
F Lellouche, Pierre Foreign Affairs spokesman, Rassemblement pour la Republique
F Levy-Lang, Andre Chairman of the Board of Management, Banque Paribas
USA Lord, Winston Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs
P Marante, Margarida TV Journalist
CDN Martin, Paul Minister of Finance
USA Matlock, Jack F. Former U.S. Ambassador to the U.S.S.R.
B Maystadt, Philippe Vice-Prime Minister, Minister of Finance and Foreign Trade
USA McHenry, Donald F. Research Professor of Diplomacy and International Affairs, Georgetown University
NL Melkert, Ad P.W. Minister for Social Affairs and Employment
GB Monks, John General Secretary, Trades Union Congress (TUC)
F Montbrial, Thierry de Director, French Institute of International Relations;
Professor of Economics, Ecole Polytechnique
INT Monti, Mario Commissioner, European Communities
NL Her Majesty the Queen of the Netherlands
USA Nunn, Sam Senator (D, Georgia)
PL Olechowski, Andrzej Chairman of the Supervisory Board, Bank Handlowy W. Warszawie S.A.;
Former Minister for Foreign Affairs
CDN Ostry, Sylvia Chairman, Centre for International Studies, University of Toronto
GR Pangalos, Theodoros G. Minister for Foreign Affairs
USA Perry, William J. Secretary of Defense
N Petersen, Jan Parliamentary Leader, Conservative Party
USA Podhoretz, Norman Editor, Commentary
CH Pury, David de Director of Companies; Former Co-Chairman of the ABB Group and former
Ambassador for Trade Agreements
GB Rifkind, Malcolm Foreign Secretary
GB Robertson, Simon Chairman, Kleinwort Benson Group plc
USA Rockefeller, David Chairman, Chase Manhattan Bank International Advisory Committee
CDN Rogers, Edward S. President and CEO, Rogers Communications, Inc.
GB Roll, Eric Senior Advisor, SBC Warburg
INT Ruggiero, Renato Director General, World Trade Organization; Former Minister of Trade
S Sahlin, Mona Member of Parliament
D Schrempp, Jurgen E. Chairman of the Board of Management, Daimler-Benz AG
INT Schwab, Klaus President, World Economic Forum
DK Seidenfaden, Toger Editor-in-Chief, Politiken A/S
USA Sheinkman, Jack Chairman of the Board, Amalgamated Bank
CH Sommaruga, Cornelio President, International Committee of the Red Cross
USA Soros, George President, Soros Fund Management
E Her Majesty the Queen of Spain
USA Stephanopoulos, George Senior Advisor to the President
D Strubo, Jurgen CEO, BASF Aktiengesellschaft
H Suranyi, Gyorgy President, National Bank of Hungary
IRL Sutherland, Peter D. Chairman and Managing Director, Goldman Sachs International;
Former Director General, GATT and WTO
NL Tabaksnlat, Morris Chairman of the Board, Unilever N.V.
GB Taylor, J. Martin Chief Executive, Barclays Bank plc
USA Trotman, Alexander J. Chairman, Ford Motor Company
I Veltroni, Valter Editor, L’Unita
P Vitorino, Antonio Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Defence
D Voschherau, Henning Mayor of Hamburg
A Vranitzky, Franz Federal Chancellor
NL Vuursteen, Karel Chairman of the Board, Heineken N.V.
S Wallenberg, Marcus Executive Vice President, Investor AB
USA Weiss, Stanley A. Chairman, Business Executives for National Security, Inc.
USA Whitehead, John C. Former Deputy Secretary of State
CDN Wilson, L. R. Chairman, President and CEO, BCE Inc.
INT Wolfensohn, James D. President, The World Bank; Former President and CEO, James D. Wolfensohn, Inc.
D Wolff von Amerongen, Otto Chairman and CEO of Otto Wolff GmbH
USA Wolfowitz, Paul Dean, Nitze School of Advanced International Studies;
Former Under Secretary of Defense for Policy
E Yanez-Barnuovo, Juan A. Permanent Representative of Spain to the UN


OBSERVERS:
NL Orange, H.R.H. the Prince of
B Philippe, H.R.H. Prince

RAPPORTEURS:
GB Micklethwait, John Business Editor, The Economist
USA Victor, Alice Executive Assistant, Rockefeller Financial Services, Inc.



Source: http://www.bilderberg.org/bildlist.htm


DAKLE JA SAM PAK MIŠLJENJA KAKO SU OVO IPAK LJUDI KOJI ZNAJU ŠTA RADE I IZA KOJIH STOJE NAJMOĆNIJE OBAVJEŠTAJNE ZAJEDNICE SVEMIRA, A NE SAMO SVIJETA.
TAKOĐER SAM MIŠLJENJA KAKO ARGUMENTI TIPA: "A ŠTO SU ONI MOGLI UČINITI?!" PADAJU U VODU, TJ. O NJIMA JE BESPREDMETNO RASPRAVLJAT!

@W.M. Felt

Ne radi se „preferiranju“ Gotovine u odnosu na bilo kojeg drugog hrvatskog vojnika, nego o činjeničnom stanju na terenu, u trenutku počinjenja zločina koji se generalu Gotovini stavljaju na teret. Ako su zločini postojali onda za njih treba odgovarati onaj tko ih je počinio i mogao biti odgovoran za njih.
Meni nije bilo ni malo naivno očekivati bolju reakciju EU-a, jer od temeljnih zadataka zbog kojih su došli na ratom zahvaćeno područje nisu odradili manje-više ništa. No zato su se vrlo uspješno ubacili u nelegalne poslove sa švercom goriva, ukrajinki itd. Krenemo li logikom da Gotovina ili neki drugi general odgovara po zapovjednoj odgovornosti, (zato što nije spriječio počinjenje zločina) u tom slučaju možemo opravdano tražiti i očekivati odgovornost EU-snaga koji su na teren i došli da bi spriječili sukobe.
Kriminalizacija domovinskog rata za mene znači potenciranje teze o „zapovjednoj odgovornosti“, prekomjernom granatiranju Knina (u nedostatku nekih ozbiljnijih argumenata) jer po tim i takvim nebuloznim optužnicama može biti optužen bilo koji hrvatski časnik koji je sudjelovao u akciji.
Ratni i svi ostali zločini su svakako za osudu, no treba razgovarati o konkretnim zločinima i počiniteljima, sa imenom i prezimenom, jer u protivnom je to generaliziranje krivnje a što je to drugo, nego kriminalizacija domovinskog rata (u konkretnom slučaju akcije „Oluja) i svih njegovih učesnika.
Puno bi manje „nesporazuma“ oko svega bilo da je pravovremeno rečeno tko je agresor i tako ga se tretiralo. Korištenje termina „građanski rat“ je dobrim djelom ohrabrilo srpska osvajanja i zločine koji su slijedili.

W.M. Felt je napisao/la (Pogledaj post): › Haški tribunal osmislili su Amerikanci, a njih nije bilo na mjestima o kojima ti pričaš. Osmislili su ga, kao i onog za Ruandu, svjesni da su narodi iz ratnog područja previše primitivni da bi sami sudili prvenstveno svojim ratnim zločincima. Pa uostalom, naš je narod toliko primitivan, da se ni Glavašu, 15 godina poslije, nije moglo suditi u Osijeku, nego su stvar premjestili u Zagreb. Ako se nije moglo Glavašu 2005., valjda je jasno da se nije moglo ni drugima devedesetih.

Zašto lažeš? Ili, zašto govoriš o nečemu o čemu nemaš pojma? Iako, prije bih rekao da lažeš i namjerno podmećeš, tj. namjerno iznosiš neke konstrukcije da bi oblatio i Hrvate i RH te nas pokazao kao primitivce i nesposobnjakoviće. Koji su tvoji razlozi?

Evo, za sve koji misle da smo toliko primitivni da ne možemo sami sebi suditi: http://members.fortunecity.com/kegla/kaznena-djela.html

simo031 je napisao/la: › Ako su zločini postojali onda za njih treba odgovarati onaj tko ih je počinio i mogao biti odgovoran za njih.

Slažemo se potpuno. S tim da ja ne znam stvarno stanje na terenu. Ako si u pravu, Gotovina se nema čega bojati, a ne znam zašto je uopće bježao.

simo031 je napisao/la: › No zato su se vrlo uspješno ubacili u nelegalne poslove sa švercom goriva, ukrajinki itd.

Sigurno da jesu. Vojska je najveći potrošač cigareta i kurvi. Treba i benzina. Nezgodno je što smo i mi sami Srbima prodavali benzin i hranu, a neki to čak ni ne negiraju (Jambo), nego tvrde da su samo slušali naređenja. Što onda reći o EU. EU slabo troši živote svojih ljudi, ako u tome ne vidi nekakav opipljiv interes, uostalom, kao što ćemo i mi u budućnosti.

simo031 je napisao/la: › jer po tim i takvim nebuloznim optužnicama može biti optužen bilo koji hrvatski časnik koji je sudjelovao u akciji.

Ne može svatko, nego samo zapovjednik - "zapovjedna odgovornost". No, kako smo propustili osuditi počinitelje, teško možemo uvjerljivo tvrditi da o tome nitko ništa nije znao. Sve u svemu, što god mi mislili o događajima o kojima ne znamo puno, i koliko se god nadali da će ih sve osloboditi, ideje da se u optužbi radi tek o gomili gluposti, malo su naivne. Naime, i meni se čini da bi generale mogli osloboditi, no ako ih ipak osude, ja to zasigurno neću smatrati "svjetskom zavjerom kojoj je cilj izjednačavanje krivnje, jer to žele svjetske sile, kako bi se dodvorile Srbiji, jer je Srbija sjajno tržište, i zlatna koka, kakva je nekad bila i Hrvatska" (ispričavam se Simo, no ovakve se djetinjaste ideje mogu pročitati na ovoj temi).

Brick Top je napisao/la: › Evo, za sve koji misle da smo toliko primitivni da ne možemo sami sebi suditi: http://members.fortunecity.com/kegla/kaznena-djela.html

Bla, bla, bla. Nisi na Glavnom stanu Hsp-a. Ako ti zaista iskreno misliš da se u Hrvatskoj tijekom devedesetih moglo pravedno suditi hrvatskim generalima, bili oni Glavaš, Norac ili Gotovina, onda si zaslužio dobru funkciju u stranci. Takvog vojaka treba zadržati.